I have recently learnt that the 29.59 minute max recording time on the Panasonic Lumix GH1 is not due to hardware limitations, it’s purely down to European Union tax law.
In 2007 a ruling was announced that any digital camera that records 30 minutes or more of video is classified by the EU as a camcorder and is therefore subject to 4.9% import duty (assuming the camera was made outside of the EU which they generally are!) So that is the reason why the EU version of the GH1 has the 29.59 minutes max per clip and the rest of the world doesn’t get this limit.
Would you pay 4.9% (about 60 euros) more in the EU to get the max recording time and have it classified as a camcorder? I for one would.
This is not Panasonic’s fault really. They are at the mercy of the European Union and don’t get me wrong, I love Europe, I am European through and through being dual nationality French and English, I just think some of their laws…well, suck! Panny need to know that the people buying the GH1 are buying it as a camcorder first and foremost and want full functionality like the rest of the world has and have no problem with it being classified as a camcorder!
Please make your thoughts known below and maybe if enough of us say what we want, something can be done. As much as I want to, I am not trying to change EU law, that won’t happen, I just want to see if there are enough people who want the full functions of this camera. 4.9% is a fair bit but still cheaper than import duties from getting one from Hong Kong (although it’s cheaper there). You then get into warranty issues though….I am sure Panasonic EU don’t want people importing the cameras from all over the world as this WILL happen.
Film makers are a rabid bunch and will do whatever they can to get the best!
Don’t think of it as 4.9% more, as all camcorders in EU have this in their prices, even the Canon HV20, 30 etc…It’s actually pretty odd that there is no duty on digital cameras when there is on everything else! Also 4.9% is only around 60 Euros! Not much when you think about the huge improvement.
We shouldn’t be penalised for being European! Not when those former colonists across the pond are chuckling at us when they get to 30 minutes and their little GH1s are still going… Think of all those wedding videographers using this camera as a locked off wide shot at the ceremony or speeches. Or trying to do a long timelapse. The function is there, it’s just blocked!! So please vote, and if you are not European can you show your support for us?
Also, on a slightly different note, and this is more for the whole world, not just the EU. A petition has been started to ask for much needed improvements in the firmware of the camera. Please do sign it by clicking here.
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Tobias F
February 2, 2010 at 09:19I have the option of purchasing a USA model, and at the near £300 saving, I am wondering whether the NTSC framerates are relevant enough with HD digital editing to view them as a problem. Having an NTSC tape deck was a different issue, but surely there is little difference when it comes to outputting an NTSC Sequence to a PAL export, or am I mistaken?
I know you, Phil, thought that the NTSC camera you originally tested was good, but would this cause issues in a workflow for PAL video production?
James
January 14, 2010 at 22:10Can someone with a GH1 answer this questions asked earlier here:
“Presumably you can just stop and start the shot to reset the counter?”
thanks.
pbloom
January 14, 2010 at 22:14yep, it’s simply if you want to do record like a wide shot of an event for longer than 30 minutes that it sucks
k0k05
January 1, 2010 at 03:21Well, it’s 2010 and we are still caught between the Scilla an Charibdes of either AVCHD 1280X720 @60fps with no time limit and AVCHD 1280X720 @50fps with 20 minutes ONLY
I bought the GH1 from bhphotovideo because I need to film opera rehearsalas with scenes/acts often running longer then 30mins. I have found a nice MovieConverter Studio (http://www.movieconverter-studio.com/home_en.htm)that can easily handle MTS files for my MacBook Pro which does the conversion to an iMovieHD format for further editing. So it’s all good, the only problem being the final delivery medium – I have to convert to PAL, a process that significantly reduces the quality.
marcburl
June 12, 2009 at 00:02No need to gripe…. I reckon give it three weeks and a firmware hack will restore this camera to its full functionality, without paying any extra.
andy
June 11, 2009 at 10:13so now i hear that only 2 GB or max 15 minutes can record in one file !?!? Nothing with 30 minutes in Full Hd and 17 MB/s
No HDMI-Out during preview!
Again:
Can the US version film in PAL 25/50?
Hongkongversion without this limitation?
pbloom
June 11, 2009 at 10:54I have recorded full hd 30 mins 17mbps. If u want pal format you need pal camera
andy
June 12, 2009 at 17:09is this one file or some with max 2GB?
30 minutes must be around 3,8GB and i read that each File can hae maximum 2GB – is that right?
How long take it to start a new scene after the 30 minutes are gone?
to klick a short still and record again set the 30 mintes timeer to zero? so i would lost only a frew frames.
But perhaps i is better to by the GH1 in Hongkong ( without garantie
Thanks
Errol Canfe
June 10, 2009 at 20:08Don’t mind to pay another £50 for the camera…but I think these laws are mainly to protect the national distributors in Europe (talk about free movements of goods!!!)…but I do remember though for about 4-5 years ago when americans increased the tax rate for imported European steel to protect their own domestic market the EU answered with increasing the tax rate for american cars and motorbikes in Europe. The first company hit by this was Harley Davidson for many obvious reasons but what they managed to do, by lobbying, to have exception…..we can lobby as film makers….long shoot!!! I rather pay £50
Emmanuel
June 9, 2009 at 14:06Dear Philip,
Thanks for the informations. Actually, I live in Switzerland and even here the GH1 will be delivered with the 30 minute limitation… We are making progress towards the EU
Emmanuel.
pbloom
June 9, 2009 at 14:18that’s outrageous! March on parliament!!
Emmanuel
June 9, 2009 at 16:06It’s a longer than 30 minute walk or drive…
emmanuel
June 9, 2009 at 11:59Hi Philip,
and what about a Canon d50 mk2 or a Nikon D90. Do they have also a 30 min. limit?
Have a good day,
Emmanuel.
pbloom
June 9, 2009 at 12:00the 5d? or 500d? Yes limits are in place. In full hd the 5d cannot record more than 12 minutes anyway due to hardware, in VGA mode it’s 29.59. D90 can also only record short clips
andy
June 9, 2009 at 10:15Can the US version PAl and NTSC framerates?
The price is second if i can film in 25/50 without this timelimitaion! So i would import the Cam from US with tax and more.
Honkongversion without this limitation 29:59 seconds?
Thanks
Richard Smither
June 6, 2009 at 12:19What do you think the chances are of the AVCHD breakup being resolved?
Have Panasonic acknowledged it’s fixable?
Thanks Philip
crazydelta
June 5, 2009 at 01:52I live in Hong Kong, and I just checked the retail price for the GH1 here, and considering the exchange rate, it only costs me €1,180 to buy this camera. And no, we don’t need to pay any tax on this stuff in Hong Kong.
Makes me want to buy it more now. Hopefully it will not have that recording time limitation you guys over there are stuck with.
pbloom
June 5, 2009 at 18:08it has no record time restrictions
Jamie Abbott
June 4, 2009 at 11:07While the UK price for the GH1 is higher than the US price, comparing specs from the Panavision UK site shows that the UK version does PAL recording in addition to, not instead of, all the NTSC functionality. While I agree the 30-minute limit is silly, you do get more options (including color) with the GH1 in the UK so there is some justification for the higher price.
pbloom
June 4, 2009 at 11:08sorry Jamie, that isn’t correct! the UK version is PAL only. Trust me on that one!
Jamie Abbott
June 5, 2009 at 00:15My apologies for any incorrect information. Someone needs to tell Panasonic! Under “Motion Image” on the official Panasonic UK website it lists the following:
Motion Jpeg [4:3] QVGA : 320 x 240, 30fps / VGA : 640 x 480, 30fps / Motion Jpeg [16:9] WVGA : 848 x 480, 30fps / Motion Jpeg [HD] 1280 x 720, 30fps / AVCHD NTSC [Full HD] 1920 x 1080, 60i (sensor output is 24fps)(FHD: 17Mbps) / AVCHD NTSC [HD] 1280 x 720, 60p (SH: 17Mbps, H: 13Mbps, L: 9Mbps) / AVCHD PAL [Full HD] 1920 x 1080, 50i (sensor output is 25fps)(FHD: 17Mbps) / AVCHD PAL [HD] 1280 x 720, 50p (SH: 17Mbps, H: 13Mbps, L: 9Mbps)
Source: http://www.panasonic.co.uk:80/html/en_GB/Products/LUMIX+Digital+Cameras/G+Micro+System/DMC-GH1/Specification/2146697/index.html?trackInfo=true
Morten
June 4, 2009 at 08:56What about cellphones, web-camera, (h… even toasters may soon capture video) ?
Anyway, many of these high-end phones records video. The quality stinks, but this EU rule is probably not related to the quality/resolution of the video.
I have never heard about a 30min limitation in phones ?
Well, maybe its all included what do I know. Just a thought.
pbloom
June 4, 2009 at 09:02it also needs to be of a certain resolution before it is classified as a video camera by the EU. Also mobile phones, laptops etc already have duty paid on them for being what they are. The weird thing is digital cameras have NO duty on them which is odd, hence this silly situation has arisen.
Nathan
June 4, 2009 at 08:47Whilst the limit is annoying and the tax rule behind it is idiotic, is it really such a limitation?
Presumably you can just stop and start the shot to reset the counter?
Surely it’s better to split up your footage into shorter takes then one endless shot?
pbloom
June 4, 2009 at 09:00am thinking about long timelapses, locked off wide shots in interviews, or at events…many reasons why this limitation would be better if it wasn’t there
Nathan
June 4, 2009 at 09:49No question it would be better without, and you’re right – as a setup and forget B-camera long recording time is useful.
For timelapses, does it have any kind of intervalometer stills mode?
pbloom
June 4, 2009 at 10:11no interval recording stills or video unfortunately.
Marcus
June 3, 2009 at 21:04Hello Philip,
i was thinking to buy this camera because the GH1 have some good features. And your great work with the GH1 have convinced me. I thought this would be a joke with the 30 Minutes limitation.
Yesterday I bought a Photomagazine and there was a GH1 advertisement with the main message, that you can make films with this camera. They didn´t present the GH1 like a normal Photocamera. I think the main reason to buy this camera is to make films not to shoot Photos. If I want only to shoot Photos I would buy a other camera for this money (or the cheaper G1). I often need to film longer than 30 Minutes and when panasonic would react to fix this it would be great.
I also think about to wait, perhapes an other producer would creat a camera like the GH1 without this limitation, or maybe this is a chance that it would be better to buy the Canon 5D Mark II. Does the 5D Mark II have the same limitation? The price is over 1000 Euros more and perhaptes it would be better to wait and save the money???? It is interesting to watch what will happen the next weeks with the GH1.
Best regards
pbloom
June 3, 2009 at 21:53the 5dmk2 has a worse limitation. It can only do about 12 minutes and that’s a hardware issue! It’s a better camera for sure but a lot more money
SteveLgBch
June 5, 2009 at 23:45And now I tried it at 640×480, and sure enough. it stopped at 29:59. So I guess that shows that the 5DII has the same limitation as the GH1.
pbloom
June 6, 2009 at 08:22same issue then! mmmmm
Christopher Mellevold
June 3, 2009 at 20:01I thought it curious you phrased your poll as you did, treating the EU tax as an immutable law of nature and Panny as the party to be petitioned. Maybe it’s just the tax-hating Yank in me, but I would have asked: Should the unelected pinheads responsible for such an idiotic tax be flayed alive, yes or no? Sure, Panny is more likely to budge, but why not protest a tax that targets shooters?
pbloom
June 3, 2009 at 20:15Of course but we need to start with something possible then go from there. Changing EU Tax law from my blog is a lofty target to go for!!! Maybe next week
Christopher Mellevold
June 5, 2009 at 07:52Ah! As it happens, I’m available next week for a march on Brussels. I stand ready with flaming torch and pitchfork awaiting further orders.
Bruno DW
June 3, 2009 at 19:03I’m french and I’m concerned with that issue too.
I also asked in many forums, to people who could hear me, for a software modification that would fix this limitation.
It could be done by a few software hackers by reverse engineering like comparing asian (Hong-Kong) and european firmwares (the same way it was done for DVin activation on first generation DV camcorders).
Some Panasonic, software engineers could also help to do so by giving some clues on where to look at in the firmware.
But that is a little bit not legal
So another idea came to my little brain while reading your blog Philip !
As everybody knows, the GH1 retail price is $1499 in the US.
In Europe, the same product but with recording time limitation (because of a 4.9% tax) is sold 1500€.
Exchange rate : 1.4US$ for 1 €.
So European prices should be 1071€ excluding VAT and around 1285€ including 20% VAT.
I think that for the price difference (215€) between Europe and the rest of the world, Panasonic could make a little gift to their european customers and pay for the extra 4.9% tax and ddeliver an unlimited recording time camera !!!
4.9% means an amount of about 63€ if calculated on retail price which might not be true. Could someone check on whick amount, the 4.9% are calculated ?)
The price difference between Europe and the rest of the world (Japan, Hong-kong, US …) is only justified by marketing strategy not by real cost issues.
Philip, as you often get in touch with Panasonic’s marketing staff, could you please talk to them about that possibility.
This would make a lot of customers happy and erase one of the few drawbacks of the GH1 while remaining legal !
Please excuse me for my poor school english.
Best regards.
pbloom
June 3, 2009 at 19:17awesome post. thanks!
Ben Bunch
June 3, 2009 at 19:35Don’t forget that Panasonic themselves seem reluctant to fully market the thing as a camcorder replacement, to protect their prosumer camcorder division…actually not just in marketing, in crap like the as far as I can tell arbitrarily low bitrate on the codec. So actually paying more money so the thing can be legally a Camcorder doesn’t seem like their modus operandi. Just sayin’.
pbloom
June 3, 2009 at 19:41that is true that it is part of their digital cam division not their camcorder market but if they can see the writing on the wall…
Billynom8
June 3, 2009 at 17:02It would be better to petition panny for a firmware update release. this way everyone wins.
pbloom
June 3, 2009 at 17:07that won’t work as they will then be breaking EU rules by turning it into a “camcorder” post import and be cheating the tax man out of that money. They would also be fined!
Adrian Frearson
June 3, 2009 at 16:02LOL, three people have voted no!
I rarely record for more than a few minutes at a time, unless it’s talking heads or gigs ( or a talking heads gig ). But this is just the kind of ridiculous bureaucracy that the European Parliament has now become well known for.
Nino
June 3, 2009 at 15:55How about flashing the EU firmware with the US version once it comes out? I’m sure somebody will do that in no time.
pbloom
June 3, 2009 at 16:21Maybe, but will it work? will it invalidate our warranty. I want to be completely legit
CommanderSpike
June 4, 2009 at 08:29Nice post, but the petition is rather more about a separate issue, one that I myself helped highlight on the DVXUser forum.
The EU law really does suck, but I’d rather Panasonic fixed the AVCHD full HD break-down issues beyond anything else.
Panning or fast handheld reality style work with my GH1 is impossible in AVCHD mode (especially 1080i 24p) due to this bug.
pbloom
June 4, 2009 at 08:45true, but i didn’t want to create a separate blog just on this on the same day as it would make me look like a whinger. I will continue to highlight the petition in further blogs.
pbloom
June 4, 2009 at 08:48but i have reworded it so it makes more sense! I will continue to retweet the petition page and urge every one on twitter to do the same http://twitter.com/philipbloom
Menneisyys
September 18, 2009 at 02:40I don’t think it’d work – it has never worked with the video-wise very similar (but, of course, it’s just a P&S) Pana ZS3 suffering from the same problem.